Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 19 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1226



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zot!
re: Zot!
Re: Zot!
Re: Imperial Stationary
Re: Imperial Stationery
Re: Attention Gear Heads! New Toy!
Re: New gamers, old gamers
Technology / Supporting our game (or is that "Whither Traveller"?)
Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
Vargr pic
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1222
Re: Imperial Stationery
The Journey Continues
Online THUDDD submission form
Re: Itty Bitty Traveller page ; Fleet Maneuvers (Supporting our Game)
Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
Dwarfstar's Star Viking
Re: Technology / Supporting our game (or is that "Whither Traveller"?)
Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
Re: Imperial Stationery
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1225
Re: test - ignore
Re: caesarians

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:33:05 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Zot!

Walter Smith wrote:
>>
>> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.airbornelaser.com/
...
>> I know they designed this thing for Theater Missile defense, but how
>> long is it going to be before someone decides to try it out on an enemy
>> airplane? Or an enemy ground unit?
>It might be a while before it is used on a plane.  The ABL destroys
>ballistic missiles by heating the propellant tanks on the missiles for
>a minute or so, until the metal loses its temper and ruptures due to
>the propellant's pressure.

At shorter ranges, vs an aircraft (say, 50 miles) the heat load on the
plane will of course be many times greater - high enough, I would
expect, that softening the airframe would be fairly catastrophic to a
plane under any kind of aerodynamic load (or to the pilot.)

I've said before - once laser weapons get deployed, they're going to
have roughly the same effect on aircraft that machineguns had on
cavalry. You can't dodge a laser...the days of the high-performance
manned fighter aircraft are numbered.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:30:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Zot!

Bruce MacIntosh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
I've said before - once laser weapons get deployed, they're going to
have roughly the same effect on aircraft that machineguns had on
cavalry. You can't dodge a laser...the days of the high-performance
manned fighter aircraft are numbered.
>>>>>>>>>
That laser-toting 747 doesn't exactly look like a well-armored warplane.
Once more than one side has airborne laser capabilities, will they
effectively counter each other? Or will someone just have to make
defensible (or disposable) flying laser platforms?

I wonder if ground-based anti-aircraft lasers would be a credible deterrent
yet.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:46:13 -0500
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)
Subject: Re: Zot!

Hi.  Do you suppose stealth will provide a longer lease on life?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Macintosh <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
>
>At shorter ranges, vs an aircraft (say, 50 miles) the heat load on the
>plane will of course be many times greater - high enough, I would
>expect, that softening the airframe would be fairly catastrophic to a
>plane under any kind of aerodynamic load (or to the pilot.)
>
>I've said before - once laser weapons get deployed, they're going to
>have roughly the same effect on aircraft that machineguns had on
>cavalry. You can't dodge a laser...the days of the high-performance
>manned fighter aircraft are numbered.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:42:33 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Stationary

Thomas Schoene writes:

>>I thought [Norris] got prior warning of the assination, and the start of
>>the collapse, and realised without strong Imperial control, Deneb and the
>>marches could have collapsed into chaos. So he got his stash of Imperial
>>stationary (Signed I believe by Strephon) and became Archduke.

Quite right.
 
>But he needed the authority of the Warrant to make it legal to appoint
>himself Archduke, didn't he?
 
I very much doubt that even an Imperial Warrant would allow anyone to appoint
himself Archduke, or even a lesser Imperial title. I have no evidence to
offer, I just think that is very unlikely. Certainly even an Imperial Warrant
will have some limit to its authority. At the very least it would fall short
of enabling the bearer to replace the Emperor. I just happen to think the
limit would extend to the creation of new Imperial nobles.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:06:10 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Stationery

In a message dated 10/19/99 10:48:30 AM Central Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:

<<  
 >But he needed the authority of the Warrant to make it legal to appoint
 >himself Archduke, didn't he?
  
  >>
By the time anyone could have thought to question whether Norris had actually 
been made an Archduke, the Imperium was in the throes of rebellion, and any 
charges of lack of legitimacy were clouded by partisan politics.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Attention Gear Heads! New Toy!

Leonard Erickson writes:
> > In recent tests,...[the system was] operated...using nitrogen,
> > helium and ammonia as propellant gases. The thruster can also
> > potentially be operated with water as propellant. By means of
> > spectroscopy, the helium velocity at the nozzle exit was found to
> > be about 13,000 meters per second. That is the highest measured
> > specific impulse for a continuously operating low power
> > electrothermal thruster...
> 
> That's an Isp of about 127,400. I wonder what the max thrust is?

Urk.  No it isn't.  It's an Isp of 1,326.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:30:40 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfrei@gte.net>
Subject: Re: New gamers, old gamers

Add my name to the petition

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:13:16 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Technology / Supporting our game (or is that "Whither Traveller"?)

Howdy all.

Chris Seamans pinpointed a lot of issues I'd only been vaguely
aware of: that each generation has a different way of enjoying
themselves.  I now have to face the possibility that Traveller
may not be entertainment-in-a-vacuum -- that its appeal may
be due to the 1970's, with all its hard-SF influences and veteran
wargamers.

If Traveller needs to flex to survive, then so be it.  A Traveller
that can accept the new trends while keeping the old might be
fine.  And Traveller might have to flow with the times, because
it is entertainment, and entertainment is not an objective reality.

So then, Traveller has some routes it can take that offer the new
to the young while keeping the traditional for the old.  The flexibility
is in options which the ref can keep or throw away.  For a classic
example, take psionics.  Our campaign has psionics in it, but we
haven't encountered it yet, nor do I think any of our characters
have it.

My suggestions would be to allow, and more importantly, set
bounds on, things relating to human/computer technology,
including

    nanotech
    cybernetics
    human-computer data interface

Nanotech need not be nanites-run-amok.  Set bounds on it and
explain how it works in the Imperium and why.  Allow it in strictly
controlled areas -- tiny, nanetic "clean boxes" -- becuase they're so
dang good that they'll even process metals, wastes, organics, flesh
and bone if set free.  A virus indeed.  Make them converters of
raw materials only, not builders.  Banana peels into gold, or some
such alchemy.

Cybernetics need not be Terminator.  Set bounds on it and explain
how it works in the Imperium.  We've already got a good start on
it from T4.  My take would be to penalize social standing, and give
a probability of harming intelligence as well, per implant.

Human-computer data interface need not be cyberpunk.  Keep
what new gamers like about it and set bounds on it.  Frame it
in the context of the variety of systems and the space-time problems
of the Imperium.  Even classic Traveller had players hacking into
corporate mainframes.  And on some worlds they'll have to do just
that... but there will also be immersive, interactive environments.
I would suggest penalizing endurance for this kind of skill, and also
making endurance a requirement for hacking skill.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:12:38 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup

> My apologies to everybody on the list who lost their keyboards as a result
> of my posting. Personally, I'm just happy that the issue of the Kinunir
> Warrant has finally been settled.
>
> I have decided to make amends. Anyone who needs cash for a replacement
> keyboard should hit the following link:
>
> http://www.pil.net/~semo/credit3.jpg
>
> [A geeky note about the image: No, that's not actually Margaret I, that's
> Suzanna Beckford and it's a detail from a portrait by Sir Joshua Reynolds,
> painted in 1756. The painting is currently located in London's Tate Gallery.
> Keep this in mind if you happen to visit the Tate, please don't argue with
> the staff.]
>
> "I'm sorry sir, that's Suzanna Beckford, not Empress Margaret I... I'm very
> sorry to hear that she died in a tunnel collapse, sir, but this really isn't
> her."

I am I missing something? I find no images where either the "warrant" or
"credit3" are.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:15:02 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Vargr pic

Hi guys,
the last issue of the German SciFi series "Perry Rhodan"
had a very interesting cover for Vargr fans:
go see the scanned image at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/vargr.jpg

or see the original on the official Perry Rhodan page at:


http://www.perryrhodan.net/html/1990tibi.html

Only the uniforms are not really in Vargr style, IHMO.
Have fun!

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:19:23 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1222

ROFLMAO!


> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:01:06 -0000
> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> Subject: Important: The Kinunir Warrant!
>
> The final resting place of the Imperial Warrant that was on the Kinunir has
> been hotly debated for many years. Some say Norris used it to keep the peace
> and stability of the Spinward Marches. Others swear that they were part of
> the adventuring party that found it and they used it mainly to circumvent
> local authorities when they got into fusion powered bar brawls.
>
> The truth is much, much more frightening. A deep cover IISS Scout was
> recently found, a victim of "spacing," in the [CLASSIFIED] Subsector. A
> small holocube was found in his stomach. Go to
> http://www.pil.net/~semo/warrant.jpg to see what was on it. Please pass this
> on to other loyal and patriotic Imperial citizens and let them know what a
> threat to Imperial security this is.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:18:24 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Stationery

- ----------
> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Stationery
> Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 1999 12:06 PM
> 
> In a message dated 10/19/99 10:48:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
rancke@diku.dk 
> writes:
> 
> <<  
>  >But he needed the authority of the Warrant to make it legal to appoint
>  >himself Archduke, didn't he?
>   
>   >>
> By the time anyone could have thought to question whether Norris had
actually 
> been made an Archduke, the Imperium was in the throes of rebellion, and
any 
> charges of lack of legitimacy were clouded by partisan politics.

Oops.  I had my timeline muddled.  I was thinking (for no good reason) that
the Archducal appointment came immediately after the 5FW.  

Never mind.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:51:47 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: The Journey Continues

First this-
> From: Jerry Paul Sanders [mailto:timmon@primenet.com]
> 
> I am in shock. Today I received a letter from William H. Keith Jr.
> informing me that his brother J. Andrew Keith died  on August 
> 7th.

Then this-
> From: Tascelt@aol.com [mailto:Tascelt@aol.com]
> 
> Hello all.  Just wanted to announce the birth of a future 
> gamer.  My daughter 
> was born October 5th.  Jocelyn Rosemary Best-Silva.  I will, 
> of course, teach 
> her the great game of Traveller (in many of it's 
> incarnations) as well as 
> other RPGs.  

A tear and a smile to both.


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:08:53 -0700
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net>
Subject: Online THUDDD submission form

I had some unexpected fence mending to do on Sunday and didn't have as much
time as I thought I would.  If you have checked, you have seen that I still
don't have the submission page up yet.  However; I will get it up just as
soon as I can.

Sorry,

Jason Barnabas




__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:22:26 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Re: Itty Bitty Traveller page ; Fleet Maneuvers (Supporting our Game)

I. Traveller Page

Woo hoo!  A compliment!

Now I have a request for all you systems engineers.  If you
are into numbers tweaking, and are really really bored, I'd
appreciate it if you could help me set my Starports page to
rights.  I'm not satisfied with the way I handwave traffic, and
I don't have enough color or good examples in the text, so
if anyone wants to email me suggestions, I can be reached
at:

eaglestone@home.com


II. Fleet Maneuvers

What I would really like to see is the series of squadron
skirmishes that reduced the Corridor sector into a smoking
crater during 1117-1119.  Now there's a set of fleet actions!
I drew a map showing in general terms how the battle lines
moved during those years, and how the worlds fell and regrouped.
Some actually survived the Vargr incursions, some were swallowed
up into the Reformed Ziru Sirka, and most became just another
set of petty Vargr pocket empires.

Fleet actions would be cool.

Thanks!

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:46:16 -0000
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup

- -----Original Message-----
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup


>I am I missing something? I find no images where either the "warrant" or
>"credit3" are.


I think you are. I just checked the links again myself, and both are in
working order.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:42:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Dwarfstar's Star Viking

I apologize for the bandwidth usage...

I recall someone mentioning (whining ;-)  ) on one of these lists a few
days ago that they'd never even seen a copy of Dwarfstar's 
_Star Viking_.

I just noticed a copy on Ebay, 
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180646324 ,
the bid is around $10.50 as I write this message. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:23:03 -0000
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Technology / Supporting our game (or is that "Whither Traveller"?)

From: Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>


>Howdy all.
>
>Chris Seamans pinpointed a lot of issues I'd only been vaguely
>aware of: that each generation has a different way of enjoying
>themselves.

Well, I try ;)

>I now have to face the possibility that Traveller
>may not be entertainment-in-a-vacuum -- that its appeal may
>be due to the 1970's, with all its hard-SF influences and veteran
>wargamers.


The very definition of "hard science-fiction" is changing as well. It
actually has to do more with the nature of technology itself, and how it's
viewed. It's really difficult to explain... but I can try.

There used to be a time that a computer was computer. The device would exist
in a story to serve a purpose, and would to some degree act like the
computers that readers were already familiar with, but wouldn't exist in any
sort of cultural framework. We've had a little more experience with the
practical applications of technology now, and how quickly technologies get
integrated into peoples' lives. This changes things quite a bit. It's
bulletin board systems, eventually a global internet, it's sub-cultures, and
sub-sub-cultures utilizing the new technology in a number of different ways:
Christian themed BBSes, BBSes devoted to Grateful Dead tape trading, occult
and Wiccan BBSes, neo-Nazi BBSes and roleplaying BBSes that morph over time
into Traveller Mailing Lists, ezines and Project Gutenberg... and so on, and
so on (and Scooby Dooby Doo).

Suddenly, that computer doesn't look like just a computer anymore. That's
what dates sci-fi. It's not that older sci-fi authors got the technology
wrong, it's more that they got how that technology will fit into peoples'
lives wrong, or in many cases they simply didn't try to see it. I don't
know, I chalk it up to a different way of viewing things.

Back when I first got on the list, I brought this issue up. Back then, I was
younger and more naive, and I thought that it was the technology of
Traveller that dates poorly. I'm starting to realize that it's not the
technology itself as much as the *attitude* toward technology in Traveller.

The Imperium itself is really flat and static when it comes to technology.
The old fallback "conservative Vilani" handwave aside, the fact of the
matter is that all technologies have an impact on society that isn't
reflected in Traveller.

>If Traveller needs to flex to survive, then so be it.  A Traveller
>that can accept the new trends while keeping the old might be
>fine.  And Traveller might have to flow with the times, because
>it is entertainment, and entertainment is not an objective reality.


A sentiment I agree with entirely, although I suspect I wasn't entirely
clear with what trends I was talking about ;)

>So then, Traveller has some routes it can take that offer the new
>to the young while keeping the traditional for the old.  The flexibility
>is in options which the ref can keep or throw away.  For a classic
>example, take psionics.  Our campaign has psionics in it, but we
>haven't encountered it yet, nor do I think any of our characters
>have it.


It becomes difficult, because new ideas have a nasty way of invalidating old
ones... and there's an arbitrary line that exists that defines which old
ones can't be changed. IMTU, they're all related to interstellar travel
speed, but for others it varies.

As an example: If cybernetic eyes become available, then there's an
assumption that a pair of cybernetic eyes could be integrated into a weapon
system. However, previous canon assumes that your average grunt has only his
general issue Mk. I eyeball to rely on...

The examples that can be given are pretty much endless.

>Nanotech need not be nanites-run-amok.  Set bounds on it and
>explain how it works in the Imperium and why.  Allow it in strictly
>controlled areas -- tiny, nanetic "clean boxes" -- becuase they're so
>dang good that they'll even process metals, wastes, organics, flesh
>and bone if set free.  A virus indeed.  Make them converters of
>raw materials only, not builders.  Banana peels into gold, or some
>such alchemy.


Or integrate, but limit, the tech with already existing Traveller concepts.
Nanotech life extension technologies, for example. It updates the feel a
little bit, but it doesn't invalidate any canon, since the concept of life
extension already exists.

Or come up with a good reason why they're not used. Maybe certain types of
nanites are extremely sensitive to radiation, and they're not widely
marketed in the Imperium because of the varying amounts of solar and
planetary radiation.

>Cybernetics need not be Terminator.  Set bounds on it and explain
>how it works in the Imperium.  We've already got a good start on
>it from T4.  My take would be to penalize social standing, and give
>a probability of harming intelligence as well, per implant.


The anti-cybernetics "rule" seems to be more of an anti-munchkin rule than
anything else. Personally, I've always been a little bit baffled by the
concept myself. You take your average Imperial noble, ruler of many
worlds... why would they willingly subject themselves to the tyranny of not
being able to use cybernetics, which among other things, are extremely handy
for extending one's life. It would seem to me that cybernetics would be a
badge of rank in the Imperium, not a social stigma.

<sigh>

My personal opinion aside, I think that there are other valid ways of
getting around this. First of all, don't play with munchkins. ;) More
seriously, long recovery times, buggy hardware, difficult periods adapting
to the new cybernetics, the limits of the human body.

"Well, yeah, that cybernetic arm *is* rate for 1000 kg. Only problem is that
your body isn't." (GM to player after player's arm had seperated in a messy
fashion from his body when he tried to lift something way too heavy).

"Well, yeah, sure those cybernetic eyes looked really good at the Body Shop.
Did you really think that SuSAG is going to warn you that you're going to
get a migraine several times a week?"

In my opinion, these real limitations are the way to go... if you have a
desire to limit your players in these areas. In my opinion, they can make
things much more interesting than simply saying, "Hey, your character's a
pariah with those Ling-Standard eyes!" Due to the shadowy legal status of
most Traveller parties, I'm not so sure why this is considered to be a
disadvantage at all. ;)

>Human-computer data interface need not be cyberpunk.

Of course not. It doesn't even have to be cybernetic (which would take the
cyber right out and just leave the punk, I guess). I've always been fond of
Sterling's "spex" myself (instead of some funky neural jack, they're a
simple pair of glasses with a relatively powerful computer inside).
Something like this makes a heck of alot of sense anyway.

>Keep
>what new gamers like about it and set bounds on it.  Frame it
>in the context of the variety of systems and the space-time problems
>of the Imperium.  Even classic Traveller had players hacking into
>corporate mainframes.  And on some worlds they'll have to do just
>that... but there will also be immersive, interactive environments.
>I would suggest penalizing endurance for this kind of skill, and also
>making endurance a requirement for hacking skill.


Or a whole new set of skills. You think Joe, early 1980s era computer
expert, is going to know how to hack in an immersive, interactive
environment?

Bob: "So, Joe, do you think you're our man? We go up against that Imperial
mainframe tonight."

Joe: "Heck yeah! I'm a Unix wizard! You guys get me inside and you won't
need to worry about the rest."

Jane (whispers to Bob): "I think we should put him out of his misery."

Most of the "anti-new tech" canon was a result of attempts to keep things
"in hand" for the GMs of the world, or at least that's what it always looked
like to me. No cybernetics, because if they got introduced, everyone would
want new cybernetic arms and legs and smart guns... blah blah blah.

Ah, heck, I forget where I was going with this and I need to go get a
haircut.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:31:13 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup

> I just checked the links again myself, and both are in
> working order.

Odd. The site is there for me, but I get a "broken image". Could sombody
e-mail me the files? xrp@sierratel.com ? I feel left out. ;)

Anyone have any idea *why* I would not be able to access these pics? I'm on
a Mac, but that never stopped me before. And like I said, the server
responds and all, just seems the pic itself is not there (for me). Odd.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:44:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Stationery

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/19/99 10:48:30 AM Central Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
> writes:
> 
> <<
>  >But he needed the authority of the Warrant to make it legal to appoint
>  >himself Archduke, didn't he?
> 
>   >>
> By the time anyone could have thought to question whether Norris had actually
> been made an Archduke, the Imperium was in the throes of rebellion, and any
> charges of lack of legitimacy were clouded by partisan politics.
>

But NOT in Deneb, which is why he used his blank stationery to pen his
own appointment to Archduke. That settled things _legally_ giving him a
measure of legitimacy just when he needed the maximum amount of
stability and support in the Domain.

The partisan politics in the Imperium were in part _due_ to the nebulous
legality of Dulinor's or Lucan's ascension to the throne. There were two
claimants to the throne with equally dubious legality.

Survival Margin is pretty clear that Norris knew he was committing fraud
with his appointment to Archduke, as he reminisces that at least in the
case of his sacking of Santanocheev (which he used the warrant for)
Strephon was at least around to smack him back down.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:04:39 EDT
From: HaloqJakar@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1225

can you send me #1217 again I accidently deleted it    please?>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:24:57 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: test - ignore

At 02:36 AM 10/19/99 GMT, you wrote:
>>>Ping.
>>
>>	Pong.
>>
>
>wow. i did not see that one coming.................   ;-)

	Never said I was original ... as proof of which, I've swiped your
sig:

>"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means
wanting to keep
> your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."
>                                     -Joseph Sobran



- -- "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even
   his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
   establishes a precedent that will reach to himself"
   --Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:27:42 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: caesarians

At 12:06 AM 10/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> And I seem to recall hearing that once you have a child by
caesarean,
>> you *have* to have any future children that way or risk the old
scar
>> popping open during labor. 
> 
>That's not true, actually. (asked the wife (she's a surgeon)) Was
>(is?) commonly held by lay people (maybe even docs years ago), but
>not within the medical profession these days. 
>
>As to "fashion" and c-section (from original post, not Leonard's)
>it was the fashion of _H._sapiens_ to have a high rate of death in 
>childbirth for both mother and child for most of our history. 
>Damn big heads--must be tricky fer them pesky Zhodani. ;-)

	Well, according to all the artwork I recall, they've got pointy
heads--must be to ease the passage into the birth canal ...

- -- "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even
   his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
   establishes a precedent that will reach to himself"
   --Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1226
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